Photo of an Intha fisherman on Lake Inle, Burmaquillori ([personal profile] quillori) wrote,
@ 2009-06-26 12:15 pm UTC
Warnings

I think there are at least two arguments going around, which unfortunately keep getting conflated.


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orobouros

[personal profile] phoebe_zeitgeist
2009-06-27 02:33 pm UTC (link)
Damn. Why didn't I just say this? It's so gloriously precise, and accurate, and clear.

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Photo of an Intha fisherman on Lake Inle, Burma

[personal profile] quillori
2009-06-28 07:38 am UTC (link)
Thank you. It's a great relief to hear it: the argument I get down in writing is always so very much clumsier and more confused than the one in head :) Plus, I'm currently behind on so much sleep, I think there has to be a decent chance I'm suddenly going to start writing gibberish without noticing.

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orobouros

[personal profile] phoebe_zeitgeist
2009-06-28 12:18 pm UTC (link)
the argument I get down in writing is always so very much clumsier and more confused than the one in head :)

That's the story of my entire life, right there. (Well, it is when you add in the sleep issue.) And horribly, it's true even when what's reduced to writing is lucid by any objective standards. I have to conclude that for too many of us, and maybe for all of us, this speaking/writing thing is at best a clumsy tool -- we never can make it do quite what we needed.

But as a person who is not you, I can promise you that you haven't started to write gibberish without noticing.

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Photo of an Intha fisherman on Lake Inle, Burma

[personal profile] quillori
2009-06-28 03:52 pm UTC (link)
It's very strange - I've always been quite clear I thought in words (I know some people who say they don't), so expressing them should be a trivial matter. But then I do get a sort of stereophonic effect, where I'm thinking about one thing in the front of my mind and some other idea is developing at the back (I'm not sure front/back is a very useful description, though people do talk about things being in the forefront of their mind, so perhaps it is), and I do at times have the impression I'm mentally putting into words an idea I'd already developed, so presumably the fact I do part of my thinking in fully formed sentences doesn't mean that's all that's going on.

But as a person who is not you, I can promise you that you haven't started to write gibberish without noticing.

Well, I hope that you'll give me a gentle warning should I ever do so.

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(Anonymous)
2009-06-27 03:28 pm UTC (link)
First of all, I disagree with your classifications. The fundamental divide in these discussions is that some people are talking about the responsibility of an individual writer to the individual reader. It's about courtesy and empathy, and how one person should treat another.

But then you've got people who are trying to talk about fandom as a collective; they tend to talk about fandom standards, fandom norms and what everyone is obligated to do. But that's not really relevant to those having the first discussion. I'm not saying that it's a bad discussion, just that, for some people, completely beside the point. You're talking about what Fans will do, while they're talking about what an individual fan should do.

And, from that perspective, your approach seems heartless, since it looks like you're saying that how Fan A feels doesn't matter, that these abstractions are more important than a person's feelings.

One problem with this is that it only works if it is, in fact, reasonable to assume a story without warnings is story containing nothing to warn about

But a lot of people do think it's reasonable. As you said, different fandoms have different standards and, in some warnings are the norm.

And whether or not it's reasonable to make that assumption, I think it's natural to do so. Even people with strong triggers do not spend every minute thinking about them and, while I can only speak for myself here, I don't automatically assume that every story contains rape. Not because I'm stupid or naive, but because most fics don't contain rape. Many people, myself included, see this as requiring the sort of hypervigilance that many victims suffer from. We're supposed to think about rape constantly, always looking over our shoulders in case we encounter it. Asking people to include four words strikes me as a great deal more "reasonable" than asking people to be on guard every time they read fic.

Then again, I don't like dark and disturbing fic (and am really irritated with people conflating "fucked up" with "challenging", but I guess that's another issue), so I may have a different perspective than a person who reads it on a regular basis. If I ran into rapefic every day, I probably would think that every fic contains it.

therefore everyone should warn everywhere, because otherwise survivors will have fewer stories to read

Admittedly, I haven't read every post or comment in this discussion, but I have not see anyone say that. People want you to warn because it will help people with triggers avoid trauma. How much fic an easily-triggered person has to read is a response to the claim that it's easier/more reasonable for them to only read fic that has sufficient warning. So, to make this more simple, we don't warn to give them more to read, we warn because we understand that people can be harmed by our fic and we want to avoid that.

If I agree I have a particular duty to make fandom welcoming and safe for a given group, how far does that duty extend?

But impertinence said in her original post that there is a difference between reasonable triggers and unreasonable ones. She expects people to warn for explicit depictions of rape, but not for explicit depictions of calculus, even though both of those things trigger her. No one (or, no one I've seen) is arguing that you have to warn for everything that could traumatize a person. Just that you have to try. Because, like I said, it's not about Fandom Standards it's about you, a person, trying to help another person. Yes, there are always limits to courtesy and it's up to you to figure out how much you need to think about another person's needs. But that doesn't mean we should never try.

One of my favorite posts on this whole issue is about other forms of fandom censorship: people cuttag spoilers, huge posts and anything deemed NSFW. I put warnings in the same category; we know that people do not want to see these things, so we take measures to prevent it. And we get to decide when we need to do this. Now, we won't necessarily agree on what it is we need to do (for instance, how long we should wait before something ceases to be a spoiler), but we are able to make these distinctions.

Like I said, I don't think that there's anything wrong with discussing what these distinctions might be. In fact, I think that it's important to do so. But you're misrepresenting the pro-warning argument in such a way as to make its proponents sound bad. The problem is not that pro-warning people are stupid/naive/PC thugs but that they're having a different discussion and I wish that you would respect that.

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Photo of an Intha fisherman on Lake Inle, Burma

[personal profile] quillori
2009-06-28 10:27 am UTC (link)
I just wanted to drop you a quick note to say I'm not ignoring you - you make some very interesting points and I've just run out of time today to give you the detailed reply you deserve.

ETA: see below

Last edited 2009-07-06 06:22 am UTC

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myrna, nora

[personal profile] noracharles
2009-06-28 02:29 pm UTC (link)
I always assume a fic could have consent issues. Most fic doesn't have violent rape, but many vanilla love stories have consent issues. If it's an interesting, complex story, there's nearly always someone compromising somehow.

It's common for couples not to have exactly similar sexual interests, and for one party to exert subtle pressure on the other to give them that thing they like. For many people, this compromise is sexually arousing, and it is often described in loving detail in fic.

Especially in het fic the fantasy of the man dominating the woman into trying new things, or having sex when she's not in the mood, or making her beg, or holding her down is so common that it's not considered kink and is not signaled in the metadata in a way I can reliably identify.

I like D/s, but only when it's written and acknowledged to be a kink, not when the implied message of the fic is that it's okay for A to do this to B because of the involuntary group B belongs to.

I try to stay out of wanky debates, but it's proved impossible to me to keep my hands off the keyboard when other people presume to speak for me and say things that I don't agree with. I think it's good if people with triggers can stop being hyper-vigilant and just relax. Really, good for them. But I personally cannot, and was completely baffled by the news that many readers assume no warning means nothing to warn for.

I'm fine with people wanting to warn, but this new thing with putting "no warnings" on fic the author for whatever reason thinks is safe is pissing me off. Putting "no warnings" on fic without seriously considering all mentions of trauma, all hints that a traumatic event may occur/has occured, and all mention of elements common in traumatic experiences is not quite as bad as posting rape fic with no noncon warning to a comm that requires it, but it's up there in terms of misleading readers imo.

If you have not personally read a fic, you do not know whether it contains potential triggers for you. You can only ever make an informed guess by considering the metadata, the posting environment, and what people have said about it.

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threewalls

[personal profile] threewalls
2009-06-28 03:03 pm UTC (link)
Especially in het fic the fantasy of the man dominating the woman into trying new things, or having sex when she's not in the mood, or making her beg, or holding her down is so common that it's not considered kink and is not signaled in the metadata in a way I can reliably identify.

I like D/s, but only when it's written and acknowledged to be a kink, not when the implied message of the fic is that it's okay for A to do this to B because of the involuntary group B belongs to.


This.

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(Anonymous)
2009-06-28 03:20 pm UTC (link)
Most fic doesn't have violent rape, but many vanilla love stories have consent issues. If it's an interesting, complex story, there's nearly always someone compromising somehow.

Obviously we're reading very different fics! Or have very different definitions of what constitutes a consent issue. Either way, I haven't seen many fics like the ones you describe -- especially your descriptions of het. While I have seen this trope used, I haven't run into anywhere near as often as you have.

And while I agree that any interesting, complex story will contain conflict, I don't agree that the conflict must manifest as sexual coercion. Personally, I run into more fics where the act of pleasuring their partner is arousing (literally getting off on oral sex, or watching the other person masturbate) or where Character A is worried that Character B won't want to have sex with them and are pleasantly surprised to find that they do.

but it's proved impossible to me to keep my hands off the keyboard when other people presume to speak for me and say things that I don't agree with.

Is it possible for someone to talk about their experiences with triggers without you thinking that they're speaking for you? Because saying, "I'm triggered by X" or even "a lot of people are triggered by X" does not mean "every single person is triggered by X."

baffled by the news that many readers assume no warning means nothing to warn for.

And I find automatically assuming that a fic without warnings has something to warn for baffling. That's probably because, ime, most fic does not contain triggery content. I don't see it often, so I have no reason to expect it.

Putting "no warnings" on fic without seriously considering all mentions of trauma, all hints that a traumatic event may occur/has occured, and all mention of elements common in traumatic experiences is not quite as bad as posting rape fic with no noncon warning to a comm that requires it, but it's up there in terms of misleading readers imo.

Calling it misleading is overstating it. The writer isn't trying to trick you -- they just don't think that there's anything to warn for in their fic.

As far as I can tell, no one is expecting writers to be psychic. Most people understand that you can include triggery content without realizing it. As long as the writer is willing to amend the warning when they're told about it, I don't see a problem.

If you have not personally read a fic, you do not know whether it contains potential triggers for you. You can only ever make an informed guess by considering the metadata, the posting environment, and what people have said about it.

Absolutely! That's why people want warnings, so that they can have enough metadata to make an informed choice about what they read.

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myrna, nora

[personal profile] noracharles
2009-06-29 10:46 am UTC (link)
"Personally, I run into more fics where the act of pleasuring their partner is arousing"

I'm pretty sure the consent issues I mentioned are supposed to be arousing for the characters in the fic, the author and the target audience. It's not the author's fault I'm not the target audience.

I've had to just stop reading het unless I know the author and her kinks. Fans who read a lot of het doubtless have the experience to choose fics which aren't likely to squick or trigger them. But I don't have the experience, and I see that sort of thing too often for it to be worthwhile for me to build up the experience.

I also think het fans are just less likely to even notice details like that. They think "this is a sweet, bland, maybe a bit formulaic love story, but I do like the humor!" or whatever, and I think "ugh, the author keeps going on about how he's so much bigger and stronger than her, and he keeps taking her by the arm and tugging her, or putting his hand on her back and leading her - is this blatant disregard for her personal space and autonomous movement supposed to build suspense?"

"Is it possible for someone to talk about their experiences with triggers without you thinking that they're speaking for you?"

Yes, absolutely. I don't have a problem with people speaking for themselves: this is my history with triggers, this is my personal warning policy, but I do have a problem with people making sweeping statements such as that the way things are right now people with triggers cannot make a decision on which fics to read [If we couldn't, why are we in fandom?], or that people with triggers want you to warn for rape, murder and child-abuse, it's simple and you don't have to warn for anything else [There is no simple, easy way out of using your best judgment. There is no consensus on what is a noncon/dubcon fic, death fic or child-abuse fic], or putting "no warnings" on a fic is helpful to people with triggers [Only if you provide a list of what you do warn for].

"And I find automatically assuming that a fic without warnings has something to warn for baffling. That's probably because, ime, most fic does not contain triggery content."

Imagine that, a person with less commonly occurring triggers runs into fic with triggers less often, and a person with commonly occurring triggers runs into fic with triggers more often! And these people, knowing this, adjust their reading habits to their own situation.

And when they accidentally do run into a fic with triggers, they adjust their method for selecting fics to read! Wow. It's almost like people with triggers know their own triggers better than other people do, and are the best judges on how to live with their own triggers.

I don't assume all fics contain triggers. I assume all fics could potentially contain triggers, and apparently, so do you:

"As far as I can tell, no one is expecting writers to be psychic. Most people understand that you can include triggery content without realizing it. As long as the writer is willing to amend the warning when they're told about it, I don't see a problem."

So adding "no warnings" is helpful how? If we all assume regardless that authors can include triggery content without realizing it? If a fic does not list any warnings, or only warns for one thing, I assume that there was nothing the author found it relevant or reasonable to warn for other than that one thing. Not knowing the author's warning policy, I know she might not find it reasonable or relevant to warn for violent death or rape, so I use my common sense and experience to guide me.

If the author writes "no warnings", at best I assume there might be any sort of trigger, common or uncommon, that the author has just not thought to mention. At worst, I assume the author wrote "no warnings" after careful consideration, checking lists of commonly requested warnings, checking her list of warnings her friends list has requested, imagining which incidents in the fic might be interpreted as suspenseful.

So I am definitely no better off, and potentially worse off. Do you see the problem?

That's why I say "none of the warnings I would always warn for", with a specified list! is the only way to go if you want to make your fic more accessible.

"Absolutely! That's why people want warnings, so that they can have enough metadata to make an informed choice about what they read."

I think we all agree that no one wants to be accidentally triggered, and authors want to give readers sufficient data to make a decision on whether or not to read their fic without giving so much that it makes reading the fic pointless.


One of the results from this debate I really like is that many people have now written down a warning policy, so it'll take less time to learn to interpret their warnings or lack of warnings. As for the individual warnings on fic, I'm glad if they do help anyone avoid triggering content, and I hope authors will find a way to label their fic which is not spoilery or marginalizing (looks like many people are coming up with good ways to do this!) The green-lighting of fic by an author themself can be useful in conjunction with a warning policy.

I don't think the new warning policies combined with the polarization, ill-will, name calling, dog piling, and hate lists is a net gain for fandom.

You've been polite and interesting to talk to, and I appreciate understanding your pov better. Since you choose to be anonymous, I guess you also think there's been too much free-floating rage and you want to have a constructive, practical debate without painting a huge target on yourself.

I feel the same way. I like warning policies. I like authors making informed decisions about whether and how to warn. I wish for all people with triggers to have good experiences in fandom, and avoid being hurt. I wish for all authors to have good experiences in fandom, and avoid being silenced, vilified or marginalized. I wish for all the name-callers who say either you're with us or you're eeeevil to STFU.

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Photo of an Intha fisherman on Lake Inle, Burma

[personal profile] quillori
2009-07-06 06:20 am UTC (link)
I am really not sure whether we are largely in agreement or largely not. Some of the things you say about each of us needing to figure out for ourselves how much and in what ways to consider other people's needs I am in complete agreement with, and yet in other areas we seem to be a long way apart, so it seemed best just to go through your comment in order, replying to each bit in turn.

The fundamental divide in these discussions is that some people are talking about the responsibility of an individual writer to the individual reader. It's about courtesy and empathy, and how one person should treat another.

I think it largely depends on what you mean by ‘should'. If you were to say, for example, ‘Such-and-such is a wonderful charity - we should all donate to it!', I would take you to mean not that you thought we were all obligated to donate to it, regardless of our personal circumstances and beliefs, but rather that you thought it an excellent charity and were recommending it to our attention as the sort of thing we would want to donate to. If you mean we should warn in that sense, I don't think we have any particular disagreement: there's nothing at all wrong about bringing the existence of triggers to people's attention in the expectation writers will consider the matter and decide for themselves where and what sort of warnings they each feel appropriate. I do not think, however, that that is at all a reasonable description of the pro-warnings side, the most vociferous of whom seem quite clearly to be using ‘should' in its strongest sense - they do indeed mean to suggest that all writers are obligated to warn in certain ways. In which case, they are making a moral argument which they are - unless they believe themselves infallible - obligated to explicate and defend by means of reasoned argument. They cannot get out of this by saying they are talking about the relationship between individual writers and readers: if they wish to substitute their judgement for that of each of those individual writers and state there is a certain way each of them must behave, then they are indeed talking about ‘what everyone is obligated to do'. You cannot avoid discussing ethics on the grounds you are only interested in saying what each individual person should do!

And, from that perspective, your approach seems heartless, since it looks like you're saying that how Fan A feels doesn't matter, that these abstractions are more important than a person's feelings.

There is a sense in which yes, abstractions are more important than a person's feelings. The relatives of a murder victim often have very strong feelings indeed, but we don't thereby think we should hand the accused over to them; instead, we look to the abstraction of justice and consider the evidence for the accused's guilt and what sentence it would appropriate for us to impose. Similar appeals to justice and fairness cause us to refrain from slandering the dead to please the living, even though only the latter have feelings to be spared. Indeed, it is rather the point of ethical abstractions that our feelings, however deeply and passionately held, may be mistaken as to fact, unreasonable in demand or confused in content. This is true not only where we are keeping in check spite or anger or vengeance, but also for our kindest emotions: we may easily be misled by ready pity for the case immediately before us or for our understandable partiality to those close to us, and fail to think things through. In this sense I am indeed saying, whether you find it heartless or not, that there are ways Fan A's feelings don't matter. If we are discussing a moral rule, whether a specific one that certain labels must always be placed on certain literature, or a more general one about what sorts of considerations are a writer's responsibility, then no amount of feeling is on its own sufficient to establish it. If we are not talking about a rule but instead only a consideration you yourself found persuasive, you may go by feeling as much as you like, but you must give up the demand that everyone else do as you do and instead accept they too will do as they themselves are persuaded is best. (Which may in fact be what you are arguing, in which case we are in agreement!)

But a lot of people do think it's reasonable. As you said, different fandoms have different standards and, in some warnings are the norm.

But that doesn't mean it's reasonable to assume all fandoms will have the same norms. The world is full of local rules and customs - we do not go around assuming these conventions will apply everywhere and at all times.

I don't automatically assume that every story contains rape. Not because I'm stupid or naive, but because most fics don't contain rape. Many people, myself included, see this as requiring the sort of hypervigilance that many victims suffer from.

No one is suggesting that every story should be assumed to contain rape - what is being suggested is that a reasonable person will grasp that an unwarned story might contain anything at all.* I should very much hope that this level of common sense is not an unreasonable burden, requiring a damaging hypervigilance, because it is going to be required even with warnings. Many people who need to beware of potential triggers are triggered by things that aren't on the list for universal warning, and even those who are quite probably will have other triggers that didn't make the list or are entirely individual. Furthermore, even in your example of rape, it is not in general the bare fact of a rape occurring somewhere in the story's plot that is the trigger - as I said above, the rape-related trigger could include attempted rape, a fraught period in which it seems as if there may be going to be an attempted rape, a fraught period in which it might seem to the reader as though there might be a rape even if that wasn't the author's intent, consensual play acting... I've seen it argued that one character waking up another with a morning blow-job should get a rape warning, because sexually touching someone who is asleep is a trigger and counts as not consensual - and therefore it will still be necessary to weigh up the odds whether a story without a rape warning is going to be safe to read. (Well, either that or you are not suggesting a writer spend a few seconds appending the odd word but rather carefully consider the possible impact of every incident, however consensual, or however unrelated to rape in the author's mind, which would be a significantly heavier burden.)

*This whole point is raised in relation to the argument from harm, to which it is relevant whether not putting any warning at all on a story can reasonably be taken as an explicit guarantee that there is nothing to warn for. If you are arguing instead from convenience - that having warnings makes it easier and more pleasant for some people to participate in fandom, it is unnecessary to establish that an unwarned story causes actual harm.

Asking people to include four words strikes me as a great deal more "reasonable" than asking people to be on guard every time they read fic.

It is the nature of fiction that it frequently deals with subject matter that may be distressing. It is deeply unfortunate that people do, for one reason or another, end up in a position to be hurt by quite normal things people may do in the course of their daily affairs, but I do not at all see that if follows we must provide warnings for such things. Were it something unusual and out of the way for fiction to deal with death, sex, violence, cruelty or despair, I might be inclined to agree with you, but since these are quite normal and unexceptionable fictional subjects, I cannot at all see how it is ‘reasonable' to demand they be warned for. Asked, yes, as a favour. Or have some other means of participation provided by those who care to - comms with particular rules, speedy replies from writers to individual enquiries, those writers who wish to providing warnings. Or for a particular group of people in a particular setting to mutually decide to warn for them. But required? That I don't see.

How much fic an easily-triggered person has to read is a response to the claim that it's easier/more reasonable for them to only read fic that has sufficient warning.

I think, possibly, this is an example of the conflation I mentioned? You may argue that the writer is guilty of causing harm if, and only if, you are speaking of people taking fics with no mention of warnings as safe and being thereby hurt. ‘Reasonable' applies here in the sense that if a reasonable person would foreseeably take the absence of warnings as a guarantee from the author that there was nothing to warn for, there might indeed be a case for holding the author responsible for harm resulting in that guarantee being incorrect; if a reasonable person would not take the absence of warnings as such a guarantee, it is not at all clear on what grounds the writer can be held responsible for harm arising from not providing a degree of safety she didn't claim to offer. To this argument it is quite irrelevant how many warned for stories are available, and the correct answer to anyone in the ‘anti-warning' camp who suggested sticking to warned stories would be not ‘but then there aren't enough stories' but rather ‘it's the absence of warning that is misleading - it isn't relevant that there are other stories that aren't misleading'. If you go with the ‘not enough stories' response instead, you yourself are shifting the grounds of the argument and implying that you accept that the real issue is not people misunderstanding the absence of warnings. (If you aren't making a case from the actual harm of someone being triggered by a story they mistakenly assumed to be safe, but rather from the desirability of being able to make such an assumption, then it is certainly relevant to discuss how much fic is available with warnings, but now you are making my second argument and can no longer base it on the harm of being triggered.)

No one (or, no one I've seen) is arguing that you have to warn for everything that could traumatize a person. Just that you have to try.

It is certainly true no one is arguing one should do the impossible by warning for entirely individual triggers, but that wasn't the point I was trying to make. I find the reasoning on the pro-warning side somewhat muddled, but all the arguments I have been able to make out have repercussions far beyond this immediate debate, which suggests that it is particularly important to think about them clearly. On the one hand, if I accept I am supposed to be making fandom safe for a particular group, then regardless of what has currently been asked for, I am committed to any other course that would tend to the same end. I may also be committed to making it safe for other groups, if they can argue they deserve similar treatment. Indeed, unless there is a clear reason why fandom in particular must be made safe, I may be committing myself to changing other aspects of my life. On the other hand, if the argument is directly to the harm of being triggered, well, the question of precisely the grounds on which one party is responsible for harm befalling another is clearly of great general importance, and the specific question of when a writer is responsible for mental harm befalling a reader arises with frequency in any discussion of censorship, so it is especially important to make sure any argument I accept is valid, for it will have important consequences elsewhere.

Yes, there are always limits to courtesy and it's up to you to figure out how much you need to think about another person's needs. But that doesn't mean we should never try.

Here I think we are in agreement. I am certainly not anti warnings in the sense that I think they are a bad idea that we should avoid. I am very much opposed to them being required as an absolute rule, because I don't think there is an argument that can be made for it that doesn't have unfortunate consequences elsewhere, and I do think there is something that can be said against them becoming too universal a practice (see here), but I'm not at all against the desire for them being brought to writers' attention, nor am I opposed to individual writers deciding to warn. I would be quite happy if we all agreed that warnings were something best left up to the individual writer.

But you're misrepresenting the pro-warning argument in such a way as to make its proponents sound bad. The problem is not that pro-warning people are stupid/naive/PC thugs but that they're having a different discussion and I wish that you would respect that.

I am really not sure what you think the misrepresentation is: certainly I have suggested some proponents of warnings have been making bad and confused arguments, but then I believe that to be true, so I don't think there's anything wrong in saying so. The discussion(s) I am addressing are those involving whether the writer bears a moral responsibility for harm occasioned by a reader taking an unwarned fic as safe, and those involving whether the reader has a right to expect (or the writer a duty to provide) protection from the content of a story. What other discussion are people having that I am failing to respect?

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[identity profile] queenofhell.livejournal.com
2009-06-27 04:03 pm UTC (link)
Now, if we ask whether it is reasonable to make this assumption the answer is obvious.

I think maybe by reasonable you mean...something else. Lack of pan-fandom consensus aside, in my experience (and if your experience is radically different, I will be quite surprised) the majority of fanfic that doesn't include warnings does not require warnings. I therefore think it's reasonable, if not necessarily accurate, to conclude that if a fic doesn't contain warnings it doesn't require them.

No one is arguing (I certainly hope no one is arguing) that writing about traumatic subjects is in any way wrong, and surely no one thinks racism would be fine if only it were warned for so you could avoid reading it.

The argument that I, at least, am making is that springing traumatic subjects on people without warning them, especially if you know they can be hurt by it, is wrong.

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Text only: "The Jedi don't want me and the Sith are afraid I'll take over."

[personal profile] ryan_s
2009-06-28 06:02 am UTC (link)
Unless the author is spamming survivors' blogs with links to his/her story demanding that the blog owner read it, I hardly think posting a link in a relevant community, or posting to one's own journal, counts as springing anything on anyone. People always have the option of not clicking that link, not reading that author's journal, etc. if they feel the warnings are insufficient.

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Photo of an Intha fisherman on Lake Inle, Burma

[personal profile] quillori
2009-06-28 07:32 am UTC (link)
Reasonable is not entirely straightforward to define, is it? I think I mean here something along the lines that you have made a reasonable assumption when, if asked, you can give a reason that is, if not completely sound, at least convincing and that is not open to obvious objections.

It's hard to really judge accurately what 'most fic' is like, since I'm obviously only familiar with a small subsection of fandom, but I should imagine you're quite right: there's an awful lot of fic out there that both has no warnings and requires none. From which it is certainly reasonable to conclude that the odds are an unmarked fic is safe (in which case you can of course weigh up for yourself how much you want to read the story vs the possibility of harm). But having a reason to think there's a particular level of probability that something is safe doesn't strike me as the same as having a reason to think that it's definitely safe, particularly when you must surely know that at least some unwarned but unsafe stories do exist (and I truly don't see how anyone who has given the matter a moment's thought can not know that). Not mentioning something can only be held to be concealing it if there is a reasonable expectation you would mention it, and if you are going to allege writers are culpable for harm caused to readers in this way, you must first establish the grounds on which you think readers hold that expectation, and indeed, the burden of proof lies on you, to establish it, not on anyone else to disprove it. (I should add, I don't mean this is some special standard that applies only to writing fanfic, but rather that I'm applying to this question the same standards I am accustomed to using in dealing with questions of responsibility.)

I really don't think I agree with you as to the circumstances in which warnings are required. To say that we have a duty to warn people of dangers they could with a little thought have foreseen themselves treats them as children, reattributes responsibility without due cause, contributes to a culture of timidity and restriction (what, after all, may not hurt you? If I can't trust you to judge that for yourself and have to do it for you, I have no choice but to err heavily on the side of caution) and is, any case, not a proposition for which I have seen adequate, or even any, supporting arguments.

(Another thing I might be wise to add: my objection is not to the existence of warnings as a courtesy, but to the view that they are obligatory. To accept the principle that readers have a right to freely and safely read anything they come across anywhere is to provide a stick with which to beat both free expression and literature. To accept that the reader isn't the one responsible for her own well-being is to concede her right to self-determination: the normal argument against those who like to prevent people reading things 'for their own good' is that that is the reader's affair, not some well-meaning censor's. If the reader cannot be relied on to judge her own interests, that argument is unavailable.)

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(Anonymous)
2009-06-28 05:02 am UTC (link)
not because we are worried some POC might stumble across it and feel hurt.

Reread mammothfail again.

That's why it's exactly the same.

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[personal profile] mistraltoes
2009-06-28 07:44 am UTC (link)
Thank you, thank you. I'm so glad to see that at least a few people in fandom have the strength to speak up in favor of reason. I wish I were one of them, but I admit the whole thing has left me feeling more than a bit bruised.

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[personal profile] quillori
2009-06-28 08:28 am UTC (link)
TBH, right up until the moment I hit post I wasn't sure I was really going to say anything either: the odd places I'd commented left me with the distinct impression reason was currently out of fashion. This whole affair seems to have achieved little besides hurting people and polarizing opinions to such a degree as to almost preclude genuine discussion or debate.

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orobouros

[personal profile] phoebe_zeitgeist
2009-06-28 12:27 pm UTC (link)
For what it's worth, I've been heartened by the level of civility and good will that's been apparent in the comments to my posts. I was sure I was going to regret the first one, even as I went and posted it -- but as it turned out, with only a couple of exceptions people on both sides were models of grace under pressure. There was one anonymous troll, whom no one fed, and one person who went off in a snit but didn't interfere in anyone else's threads. Everyone else seemed genuinely interested in trying to communicate across giant divides.

It's been like -- oh, dear. It's been like a model of what people who make the Tone Argument in good faith, as opposed to intending to dismiss a subject entirely, are talking about when they ask for things to be discussed with somewhat less rage. I'd be a fool to post about that, but I note it here for the record.

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[personal profile] quillori
2009-06-28 04:15 pm UTC (link)
Part of the reason I finally went ahead and posted, after leaving the completed post sitting forlornly on my desktop for ages, was seeing how calm and civil and pleasant the discussion in your journal was: people who disagreed strongly with each other were talking it over and trying to understand each other's position rather than shouting. I've noticed this about discussions in your journal before; do you perhaps have some sort of personal force-field that renders areas around you reasonable and pleasant? (Actually, I assume it's because you always reply so calmly and with such ... I can't think of a better word than 'generosity' - you give the impression you're genuinely pleased to find parts of other people's position that you agree with.)

I've really appreciated seeing a number of positions it would never have occurred to me to take being advanced very convincingly. It's always a good moment when you finally understand where someone else is coming from. (Though that does seem another reason to see warnings as something best negotiated by individual authors: the number of very reasonable concerns that I would undoubtedly fail to consider would make me chary of advocating a blanket standard to apply to writers whose situation, background and intent I don't know.)

edited for grammar

Last edited 2009-06-29 07:06 am UTC

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Sketch of Hermoine from Harry Potter with "Bookworms will rule the world (after we finish the background reading)" on it

[personal profile] trouble
2009-06-28 01:11 pm UTC (link)
As an aside, I notice some people have likened this argument to efforts to combat racism. Look, they say, here is this thing that hurts people. It isn't relevant you're doing it in your own space: racist speech is never acceptable anywhere, ... We condemn racist comments because we believe racism itself is wrong, not because we are worried some POC might stumble across it and feel hurt. ...

I'm trying to figure out a good way to respond to this.

I'm a disability rights activist and advocate. Ablist speak and interactions do harm people with disabilities, including attitudes expressed that people with mental illness or PTSD or the like shouldn't be allowed on the internet or even out of their homes because they're trauma is apparently too much for people who do not share it to bear.

This argument reminds me of the ones made by Jerry Lewis. I know he's famous in most circles for his "Jerry's Kids" telethons for Muscular Dystrophy. In other circles - those of people with disabilities - he's famous for telling people with disabilities that if they don't want pity, they shouldn't leave the house, and a variety of other similar sentiments. You can read more about it at The Trouble with Jerry

We're told all the time that our lives are too much for the unafflicted to bear, and we should do what we can to make the lives of the unafflicted easier - to not traumatise them by being in public, wanting to live as we do, and wanting to particpate to the best of our abilities in public, semi-public, or private spaces.

Nothing is "just like racism", just like nothing is "just like sexism" or "just like ablism". But there is ablist rhetoric going on in many spaces about this, including people saying that, since they haven't heard our arguments or been part of our discussions before, none of us have ever criticised problematic fics or issues and thus don't have the "cred" for this discussion. Because demanding that people with a disability always have the energy and/or spoons to take on an issue isn't problematic at all.

There is probably more I could say, but I'm exhausted.

Obviously not everyone who has been sexually assaulted or abused has "triggering" or related issues from it. Not everyone who does have those issues identifies as having a disability. And not everyone who identifies as having a disability related to those triggers is going to agree on this subject. And not everyone with a disability is going to look at the words used and say "this is ablist". I wouldn't go so far as to say "I'm only speaking for me!" because I know how a lot of people involved in this discussion are feeling on the subject, but I also wouldn't say "I'm right, damn it, and all these lurkers are supporting me in email!"

For what it's all worth.

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Sketch of Hermoine from Harry Potter with "Bookworms will rule the world (after we finish the background reading)" on it

[personal profile] trouble
2009-06-28 01:12 pm UTC (link)
Now that I'm rereading it, I think I quoted the wrong bit for the argument I was making. :( I don't want to edit it, though.

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orobouros

[personal profile] phoebe_zeitgeist
2009-06-29 01:07 am UTC (link)
Ablist speak and interactions do harm people with disabilities, including attitudes expressed that people with mental illness or PTSD or the like shouldn't be allowed on the internet or even out of their homes because they're trauma is apparently too much for people who do not share it to bear.


But that's not what [personal profile] quillori is addressing here, I don't think. Although from what I've seen of the current go-round, I wouldn't deny that hurtful and ablist statements have been made in some heated moments by some participants, the making of such statements isn't the underlying issue.

The underlying issue, instead, is whether and to what extent writers are under some ethical or community-based obligation (or should be under such obligation) to take measures to warn some groups of vulnerable readers that given stories might not be safe for them to read. Which is to say, no one is arguing that stories that might be dangerous to those with relevant triggers are inherently wrong: that they shouldn't be written, or posted; that they represent an abhorrent social pathology.

That's why the racism analogy doesn't work. We do believe that racist works ought not be written, because racism is inherently rotten. We don't want to protect vulnerable people from it (except in the sense that every member of our society, however situated, is harmed by racism and can be considered vulnerable). We wouldn't be fine with it if it were warned for. Our issue with it is the content, and not the time, place, or manner of its presentation.

The issues with triggering and warning, by contrast, are all about time, place, and manner. The person who's triggered by something like a vivid depiction of depression doesn't want a good story about depression not to exist; she just wants not to risk further trauma by reading it herself. Nor do the rest of us think that story shouldn't be written -- on the contrary, it may be a very fine story, and having the incidental social benefit of helping the non-afflicted to understand the experience of depression.

So the analogy to racism is inaccurate. Which makes it unhelpful, since it doesn't help us understand the actual issue -- and worse, it's inflammatory. Which I think is a bad thing in and of itself, since when both sides of the argument have reason to feel attacked and threatened, it's that much harder for them to reach out to each other and try to see whether there are ways of bridging the divide.

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Sketch of Hermoine from Harry Potter with "Bookworms will rule the world (after we finish the background reading)" on it

[personal profile] trouble
2009-06-29 01:28 am UTC (link)
{This may post twice. I'm sorry.}

I don't feel that your comment is addressing my point here. But then, I think in reading it you don't believe my comment addresses quillori's points. *smile* (I think this says things about both my reading and writing abilities at the moment - I think I need to sit the rest of this fandom-wide conversation out.)

I'm okay to leave it there, if you're okay to as well, rather than us both talking at cross-purposes.

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orobouros

[personal profile] phoebe_zeitgeist
2009-06-29 01:38 am UTC (link)
Fair enough. My sense is that we're both trying to communicate and increase the general degree of understanding, and *not* trying to fight for no good reason. And when that's the situation, the time to talk is when we figure out a way not to be talking at cross-purposes. Why fight, when we don't actually have a quarrel?

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Sketch of Hermoine from Harry Potter with "Bookworms will rule the world (after we finish the background reading)" on it

[personal profile] trouble
2009-06-29 01:39 am UTC (link)
That was my thought exactly. *nodnod* Thank you. *smile*

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[personal profile] quillori
2009-06-29 06:18 am UTC (link)
I'm okay to leave it there, if you're okay to as well, rather than us both talking at cross-purposes.

I think [personal profile] phoebe_zeitgeist said very much what I would have done (although she said it much better), so I don't want to jump on you with a rehash of what you've already discussed with her.

Ablist speak and interactions do harm people with disabilities, including attitudes expressed that people with mental illness or PTSD or the like shouldn't be allowed on the internet or even out of their homes because they're trauma is apparently too much for people who do not share it to bear.

I did wonder, though, if possibly you felt that by insisting that the responsibility for avoiding being triggered lay with those who had been traumatised I came across as wanting to shove an extra burden on them, perhaps because I didn't really want to bother dealing with them, or because I didn't at heart feel they should be online anyway, or bothering us by hanging around in fandom? If that is how it came across, I'm extremely sorry - it wasn't my intended meaning at all. The thing is, I think that particular responsibility is a good and valuable thing, something I wouldn't presume to strip from anyone. Our responsibility for our own well being is a necessary part of our identity as autonomous adults: to hand over responsibility for ourselves to another is to lose our self determination, to agree that others may decide for us what is in our own interests. TBH, when I first came across arguments that people who had been traumatised couldn't or shouldn't be held responsible for themselves I was shocked and angry that anyone could so blithely suggest that anyone with PTSD be reduced to the status of a child.

I'm not sure if this addresses in any way the point you were trying to make. If it doesn't, please feel to ignore it: I'm certainly not trying to pressure you into keeping debating if you feel it would be better to step back from this one.

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pretty purple pi

[personal profile] sqbr
2009-06-28 01:33 pm UTC (link)
To be honest I think a lot of your arguments here are straw men: yes, taken to an extreme the arguments people are making lead to absurdity, but that's true of most ethical arguments. Taking your own technique to an extreme, it's like if someone went around punching people in the nose, and when people said "Stop hurting others unnecessarily!" you argued "But how much hurt is too much? And what counts as necessary? Is it ok to punch a terrorist? What about the sting of an injection? Should we forbid all surgery?"

These same "But where will it end??" arguments can of course be used against any accessibility inconvenience, so as a disabled person I do not look on them very kindly :P

Argue against the points people are actually making.

Also: I personally think "Are people with triggers being reasonable?" is separate to "Should people warn?". For example, the Saw Stop was invented because saw users kept slipping and cutting off their own fingers. Were they somewhat at fault? Yes. Did they deserve to lose a finger? No. Given that despite the disincentive of losing a finger, people kept slipping, is it probably a good idea for a workshop owner to install the saw stop to save people from their own minor mistakes turning into horrible accidents? Yes. (Of course this also protects yourself, but this is a metaphor :P)

Similarly, even if I agreed that people triggered by unwarned fic are at fault for not being careful enough, given how HUGE the negative emotional cost to them and how minor the mistake AND how minor the effort required to help protect them.. I think they should be protected anyway.

This is not EXACTLY like RaceFail. The similarity is that, simplifying wildly, you have people from a less privileged group saying "This hurts me, stop it" and privileged people saying "No it doesn't (or it does, but that's less important than my own convenience/Art), and I can judge what's harmful as well as you can" and then being aggressive and derailing.

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Photo of an Intha fisherman on Lake Inle, Burma
Good grief, this got long
[personal profile] quillori
2009-06-29 11:27 pm UTC (link)
But I wasn't arguing to absurdity, or even suggesting a slippery slope, I'm disputing one of the premises and explaining why I don't accept it by pointing out that were I to do so it would combine with other premises I do accept to produce conclusions I would find undesirable. I would expect 'if someone says something you do is harming them, stop' to come with either a great deal more support as to why I should accept it or for it to be quickly refined to some more reasonable standard: as it stands I find it superficially attractive but dangerously simplistic. I am not asking 'where will it end?' but rather pointing out that the same argument could (and has) been used to justify objectionable conclusions.

(Another reason I stress the possible consequences is as a response to an argument that people have indeed being making, to wit 'this is just a tiny, unimportant thing that costs you almost nothing, so you should just agree and do it, without debate': even accepting that the matter of the warnings themselves has little cost, I think the principle on which I am being asked to act is important and bears significant costs.)

In the case of the saw, I would note that if you run your hand past a blade often enough, in the end your hand will likely slip. In a sense, this is carelessness, but humans are not designed for that sort of persistent and iterative care. It is not, however, the case that if you make a habit of reading fiction you will one day suddenly and accidentally believe that the absence of warnings equates to the safety of the story. One does not, in a moment of careless inattention, accidentally change ones beliefs.*

given how HUGE the negative emotional cost to them and how minor the mistake AND how minor the effort required to help protect them.. I think they should be protected anyway.

I can see where you're coming from with this, but I'm not sure it's a full analysis of the question. (At least, it's quite sufficient for you to reasonably decide to warn at all times, but I don't think it's sufficient to establish everyone has such a duty, which requires a higher standard of proof.) On the one hand, the cost is not that minor: as [profile] phoebe_zeitigeist has pointed out, while it may only be a small additional cost in time and effort per writer per story, the total account of the cost includes that time and effort for every story by every writer, which does add up. Then there are other potential costs of universal warnings: do they contribute to otherwise undesirable social trends (see for example here) or carry unwanted implications about the acceptability of either the acts warned for or the people who like to read and write about them? If you are deciding whether to warn yourself, you may if you please consider only the immediate cost to yourself, but to say that everyone must always warn because it costs so little involves considering the aggregate cost. On the other hand, there is a different remedy at hand, which is that we don't consider no warnings to equal safe. (Indeed, this option is the only available one for those with all but the most common triggers, and perhaps even for those with common triggers that nonetheless don't get warned for - see [personal profile] noracharles above. Actually, given the prevalence of idiosyncratic triggers, and the likelihood of even those with the most common triggers having other triggers also, it isn't clear to me that universal warnings will have a significant impact on the amount of harm done - the majority of people with triggers would perforce continue to utilise strategies other than that of relying on warnings, making the warnings largely redundant.)

you have people from a less privileged group saying "This hurts me, stop it" and privileged people saying "No it doesn't (or it does, but that's less important than my own convenience/Art), and I can judge what's harmful as well as you can" and then being aggressive and derailing.

There's quite a bit going on here I'd like to unpack. I'll start by saying that if there have been people arguing that PTSD doesn't exist, or that triggers don't or anything along those lines, I disagree with them in the strongest terms. I certainly don't mean to argue that being triggered by a story doesn't constitute harm; my argument concerns only the correct moral implications of an accepted harm. (I don't mean I think you're accusing me in particular of denying such harm exists - I'm just stressing for the record my complete lack of sympathy for such a position and desire that nothing I say should be taken by anyone as support for it.)

As to any debate about the relative importance of the harm vs 'my own convenience/Art': I note that you are again considering costs only in terms of individual writers, which not only underrates costs to convenience but also, in this instance, improperly evades any possible concerns about artistic liberty. (For example, who is going to stand up and say their art specifically is of such great importance that their free exercise of it matters all that is important? But we don't conclude from that such free exercise by all is not itself of great importance. Framing it as 'my Art' vs huge harm merely tends to shut up your opponents without addressing the issues.)

As for judging what is harmful, I'm not quite sure what you're referring to. If you mean people have been saying been triggered isn't that bad, that's awful. If you mean that not agreeing that those who have been harmed should have the final say on the issue at hand, owing to being the only ones who really understand the matter, well, there is the question of how badly hurt someone is by being triggered, of which they are clearly the best judge. Then there is weighing up the overall cost, where I think it's important to accept that all parties in principle have the ability to judge. It may be harder or easier for someone to judge one cost rather than another (harder for those not hurt do appreciate the degree of harm, harder for those being hurt to consider whether a proposed solution is justified, or has serious unintended consequences) but moral reasoning is only possible if it is in principle possible for all participants to judge the overall merits of an argument. Denying that only those who claim to have been harmed are in a position to judge what should be done is not the same as denying they know best the degree of harm.

* I suppose it could be argued that one day you might forget to consider whether a fic was safe, but that would be irrelevant to the debate at hand, since it would go to argue, not that fics should be warned, but that if they could trigger anyone they should be kept under flock, which is not the current issue at all.

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pretty purple pi
Re: Good grief, this got long
[personal profile] sqbr
2009-06-30 06:05 am UTC (link)
Heh. MY reply got so long I had to make a post to contain all the context.

So, with all that said...

I finally get more of a feel for where you and phoebe_zeitgeist are coming from. I think we have very different ideas on where the line should be drawn between "avoiding harm" and "encouraging freedom of expression", so to me "we could end up crossing the line" sounds like a slippery slope argument because for me the line is way off in the distance, but for you we're quite close so it's not.

I do actually agree that having to put complete detailed warnings(*) on all fic WOULD be bad from an artistic POV, sufficiently bad that I would argue against it even though it would increase accessibility. A small minority of stories would suffer greatly from having the relevant specific warnings. Also, I do see fanfic as an artform as relevant as any other and it should be allowed as much freedom as any other artform.

And I agree that SOME ways of writing or discussing warnings are, for example, unnecessarily shaming to people who like BDSM. But as I said in my post there's ways to avoid that.

The thing is, having a large proportion of fic unlabeled with regards to warnings ALSO creates a negative overall social trend, one where people with a particular type of mental illness are made to feel unwelcome, and are excluded. Lack of accessibility for disabled people is a TERRIBLE thing, in my opinion (as a disabled artist) it's MUCH worse than stifling artistic creativity.

But obviously, all things being equal, we should avoid stifling creativity as well. And I can't see how a pro-warnings fandom culture which has space for people who don't warn as long as they're up front about it (and is overall flexible and open minded) even approaches that level of negative consequence, on either the individual or broader level.

it isn't clear to me that universal warnings will have a significant impact on the amount of harm done

People with triggers (common and less so) mostly seem to think it will, and they'd know more than us. Also, as someone with both uncommon and common food intolerances I still find the labeling for the common ones really useful.

(*)Even just for the stuff most people agree should be warned for like rape etc. Also, randomly: I'd misstyped this as "waqrnigns" and the spellchecker suggested "Road signs". Spooky.

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[personal profile] daf9
2009-06-28 08:45 pm UTC (link)
The two things are, however, not at all the same. We condemn racist comments because we believe racism itself is wrong, not because we are worried some POC might stumble across it and feel hurt. No one is arguing (I certainly hope no one is arguing) that writing about traumatic subjects is in any way wrong, and surely no one thinks racism would be fine if only it were warned for so you could avoid reading it.

I'd disagree. Racism is wrong surely; but so are rape pedophilia and other triggers as real life events. You appear to want to equate writing a story that may have a racist component with racism while wanting to draw a distinction between writing about a traumatic subject as part of a story and a real life event involving the traumatic subject.

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threewalls

[personal profile] threewalls
2009-06-28 09:08 pm UTC (link)
You are mistaken if you think that all "common triggers" being discussed are wrong in real life.

I've seen it argued that BDSM should be considered among "common triggers". My safe, sane and consensual sexuality is not the same as rape. Not at all.

I may note that my stories contain kink, but I am not wrong to write them.

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[personal profile] daf9
2009-06-29 12:33 am UTC (link)
No argument here. I should have said that racism was wrong in the way that some of the triggers being discussed were also wrong in real life. I agree with your statement that consensual sex is not equivalent to rape or pedophilia.

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orobouros

[personal profile] phoebe_zeitgeist
2009-06-29 08:35 pm UTC (link)
With apologies to [personal profile] quillori for jumping in here:

Racism is wrong surely; but so are rape pedophilia and other triggers as real life events.

Let me see whether I can unpack this a little, because I suddenly thing I'm seeing some of where the misunderstanding is coming from.

We're all agreed, I think and hope, that racism is a social evil. And I'd like to think we're also on board with the concept that rape (and the culture that normalizes it) is a social evil.

The problem at issue with racefail, and in similar discussions about racism, is that the works in question incorporated, and therefore served to convey and to continue to normalize, racist assumptions and behaviors. (This wasn't necessarily because the writers meant to do it so much as because racism is deeply rooted and hard to be fully aware of, but that's another issue.) So, to put the matter in its strongest form, these works were implicitly pro-racism, tending to perpetuate and reinforce it.

Now, let's consider two different hypothetical stories that contain explicit rape, presented in a triggery fashion. Both stories, let's say, are genuinely dangerous to some vulnerable readers.

Our first story -- let's call it "Sweet Savage Rapefail" -- is all about how a villain rapes an innocent young man, who swears vengeance. After many encounters, though, he comes to realize that beneath that hardened villainy, the rapist has many qualities he finds attractive and even loveable. Similarly, the rapist comes to realize that his victim embodies all the virtue and strength that he once saw in mankind, but came to despair of ever really finding. Further, they both realize that it was only because of his overwhelming emotion at recognizing our hero's perfection that he lost control of himself and carried out the rape in the first place. In a rapturous scene of reconciliation, they declare their love for each other and live happily ever after.

In our second story -- call in "Hell in a Handbasket" -- the same villain rapes our young hero, who in this AU proves to be the ward of a powerful crimelord. Swearing vengeance, Hero reports to his guardian, who has the villain kidnapped and sold into a brothel. There Villain experiences everything he's done to Hero, and worse; and despite what some might call the cheesiness of the setup, our author gives us a sensitive and harrowing portrayal of the realities of rape and its aftermath, the trafficing trade, and even the corrosive effects of that trade on those who engage in it and profit from it -- including, ultimately the Hero.

Of these two stories, only one can be thought of as supporting the rape culture in any way. SSR will be criticized (I hope) by readers for the way it presents rape as a road to True Love. (Even here, though, we don't have a perfect parallel to the problem of a racist story: some readers will certainly defend it as being a kink thing, not intended to say anything about the horror of real rape. And they may have a point, depending on precisely how the author has handled the issue.) To the extent we can conclude that the writer intended precisely that message, some or all of us may condemn it on the grounds that rape is wrong.

But HH does just the opposite. Even readers who enjoy fantasy rape are horrified and repelled by its rape scenes; the writer intended to show how awful rape is, and she succeeded. Nobody is going to condemn her for supporting rape (in fact, people joke uneasily about using it in therapy for sex offenders). The racefail arguments don't apply here at all: not only is no one saying it shouldn't have been written in this form, no one is saying it promotes a noxious social evil.

And yet, is it not clear that HH has at least as much potential to trigger a vulnerable survivor as SSR? If not more so? It makes no sense to argue in favor of warning for one, but not for the other.

That's why the racefail analysis doesn't apply. If we used that analysis to look at these stories, we wouldn't put a warning on HH at all, because it doesn't support rape culture in even the most subliminal of ways. And we'd be arguing not that SSR needed a warning, but that it shouldn't be posted at all, and that the writer should take it down, re-examine her attitudes, and re-post if and only if she'd rewritten it in such a way that it no longer promoted or normalized rape.

Okay? I'm sorry to have gone on at such length -- and in somebody else's comments, too! -- but there've been so many arguments around this point, and so much hurt that I suspect was needless, that I thought it would be worth the endlessness, if only it really helped clarify the point.

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Photo of an Intha fisherman on Lake Inle, Burma

[personal profile] quillori
2009-06-30 12:46 am UTC (link)
Thank you so much for taking the time to write this - it's a fantastically clear explanation.

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bookdragon

[personal profile] sqbr
2009-06-30 01:14 am UTC (link)
Also a story "containing" racism isn't necessarily racist either: if the bad guy is an evil Nazi and dies a horrible death well that's hardly promoting racism, and noone would complain that it was. So for this argument to be equivalent people would have to be complaining that these stories PROMOTE sexual assault etc (as happens when the anti-chan argument cycles around)

I mean I still think there are elements of RaceFail-esque derailing etc going on in this discussion but I also agree with you that the specifics are different. I was initially a bit annoyed at quillori's argument because I thought "Noone's saying that writing about these topics is inherently immoral!" but apparently they are. This whole discussion is riddled with misunderstanding which really doesn't help :(

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orobouros

[personal profile] phoebe_zeitgeist
2009-06-30 02:47 am UTC (link)
No, a story containing racist behavior or attitudes by a character doesn't necessarily promote it. The argument during racefail was that the texts under examination were in fact, if unintentionally, racist, and *not* that they contained racist behavior, identifiable as such and by no means promoted, condoned, or left unmarked by the text.

No one said anything in the course of racefail that claimed racism was subject matter that couldn't or shouldn't be dealt with. No one. Indeed, one of the few things that I'm pretty sure everyone involved would have agreed on is that racism is a big deal and ought to be addressed.

"Derailing" is an entirely different issue, and not a phenomenon specifically related to Racefail. If all you meant by the comparison of the two was that you feel there are people involved in this discussion who're hijacking what should be the point of the discussion and insisting on making it about something else, that's where the confusion is coming from. It's an issue that participants in this conversation can certainly talk about (and may disagree over) -- but as you can see from this very exchange, the invocation of Racefail is likely to create a great deal of confusion.

The Racefail discussion was, at heart, about substantive issues of racism expressed in texts and how we should respond to it. A derailing discussion, by contrast, is about process -- it's a discussion of how we should be conducting a given discussion.

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pretty purple pi

[personal profile] sqbr
2009-06-30 06:25 am UTC (link)
If all you meant by the comparison of the two was that you feel there are people involved in this discussion who're hijacking what should be the point of the discussion and insisting on making it about something else, that's where the confusion is coming from

Well, for a start (and you wouldn't know this unless you're stalking me, which I assume you're not :)) I've only ever mentioned RaceFail in the warnings conversation in the context of how OTHER people are mentioning RaceFail in the warnings conversation. Because I do agree that it's different as much as it's similar, and gets confusing and messy. And some of the comparisons are flat out wrong.

But: while the specifics and dynamics differ, RaceFail was at least in part a discussion about racism, and how to avoid it in relation to one's writing.This, at least in part, is is a discussion about a particular form of ableism, and how to avoid it in relation to one's writing. As well as derailing I think the people being ableist prats in this conversation are in general behaving very much like the people being racist prats in the last conversation, see "warning: wank" by queenofhell.

Note: I don't think you or quillori are being total ableist prats like that, though I do think your arguments can be a bit ableist here and there.

Also there's the very specific fact that some of the people being vocally anti-racist in RaceFail are being pretty ableist now, which a lot of people found really shocking. But that doesn't relate to this post.

Still, I agree that comparing this to RaceFail isn't very helpful most of the time. That doesn't mean the comparison is without merit.

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Photo of an Intha fisherman on Lake Inle, Burma

[personal profile] quillori
2009-06-29 11:43 pm UTC (link)
Rape, paedophilia etc are wrong to commit, but they are not wrong to write about. There is no equivalence between the expression of a view we hold to be wicked (racism) and writing a story that is not in itself wrong. You cannot make a relevant argument from the one to the other: we say that racism should always be condemned in every setting because racism is wrong. It doesn't follow from this that a story about rape should be warned for in every setting. The one is a question of combatting something immoral. The other is question of the best way to deal with a specific risk of accidental harm.

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[personal profile] daf9
2009-06-30 04:15 pm UTC (link)
One can write or read a story that incorporates racist views or explores aspects of racism without approving of racism in real life just as one can write or read a story about rape or pedophilia without approving of the acts. Where is the difference?

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Photo of an Intha fisherman on Lake Inle, Burma

[personal profile] quillori
2009-06-30 06:06 pm UTC (link)
A story that deals with racism is not the same thing as an expression of racism. I understood the argument to racism not as having anything to do with fiction addressing racism (desirable and not to be condemned) but with examples of racism: the argument I was rebutting was that since we don't accept racism anywhere, including in personal journals, then, if it's established that not putting warnings on stories could hurt people, we should conclude by analogy to the racism example that we mustn't post unwarned stories anywhere, and the question of whether the place in question is a personal journal or a comm is irrelevant. This fails as an argument because we aren't condemning racism for potentially hurting someone who reads it (as you can see by the fact we don't think racism is any better if it appears only under a cut tag and with a warning). That racism is inherently wrong weighs against it everywhere; writing stories that deal with rape is not wrong, and therefore the question remains open whether the accidental harm done if someone is triggered by it is justly dealt with by placing universal restrictions on how stories may be presented, or whether there is a relevant right to free expression in, for example, ones own journal. Bringing up racism is therefore a flawed analogy (and one that risks implying that anyone who thinks there are arguments against universal warnings must be some sort of apologist for racism, which is clearly neither true nor a desirable thing to imply).

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i'm taking aim

[personal profile] laurificus
2009-06-29 10:46 am UTC (link)
Firstly, I'd like to thank you for this post; I'm pretty sure we have different opinions, but I appreciate the way you made your argument, and it's one of the first anti-warnings posts (for want of a better description) that's made me really see the other POV.

That said: I can understand that you think people have a duty to keep themselves safe, but from the posts I've seen, people with triggers aren't disagreeing with that position. I'm a little baffled, actually, by the idea that if authors warn, suddenly readers with triggers will be free of all responsibility ever. It's like...saying a pedestrian crossing relieves people of the burden of engaging in basic road safety, when clearly it does no more than offer a little help for those spicific times when they're there. Warnings seem exactly like that; they offer a little assistance to people who might need it. And it seems to me that even if you take the view that it's practical for a reader with triggers never to read a story that hasn't been certified safe, adding warnings is still helpful, if only because it's one less story for them to ask about.

I also think there's a lot of, "But what if this happens and then this happens, and then this happens, and suddenly we're warning for pink bunnies!" going on (in the whole debate. I'm not referring specifically to your post.), and that's kind of where I can see the racism parallels. They might not be exactly perfect, and they also apply to discussions of sexism and ablism, and probably any other -ism, but imagine fan A stands up and says, "Hey, I think this story element was racist. I found it hurtful," and then, as often does happen, a whole bunch of other fans starts going, "Well, it's what the story demanded. Are we meant to have our artistic creations vetted by the racist police now before posting? Are we never meant to say anything that could ever be ofensive? Are we going to be crucified every time a character of colour isn't a saint? Are we never allowed to write about white people again?" It denies fan A the conversation she is actually trying to have, and it makes it all about the other fans, rather than the person who was hurt. Of course you can extrapolate from having to warn for rape, to having to warn for the presence of anything ever, or to not writing certain triggery stories at all, but that's not what almost anyone on the pro-warnings camp has asked for, and I think taking it to the most problematic arguments right away avoids answering the most basic question, which is if we know certain things are triggery for a sizable number of people (and I think we do know that rape and incest and dub-con and certain kinds of extreme violence are), is it too much of an imposition for authors to warn for that?

If the answer to that is yes, then that's the discussion we should be having. And if the answer to that is no, then the other arguments you make in your post come after that. And many of them will be answered on a case-by-case basis, and many of them will always come down to individual judgment, the way so many things do. If someone ever comments to a story of mine and tells me that they'd like me to warn for the presence of slash, I guarantee you I will not be doing that. My own sense of what's right and wrong doesn't disappear just because I can see the value in warning for certain things, and I don't think it's ever been suggested that it should.

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Photo of an Intha fisherman on Lake Inle, Burma

[personal profile] quillori
2009-07-01 01:08 pm UTC (link)
I'd like to thank you also. I know that this debate has in some places grown extremely heated (sadly not the sort of heat that generates light) and it has been a great relief to see how many people, not just here but in other journals, and whatever their own position, have remained committed to discussion and an attempt to understand the opposing point of view. I appreciate you taking the time to put forward the problems you find with my analysis, and the fact that I'm about to, y'know, disagree with you on a number of points doesn't at all mean I'm not glad you raised them.

If I might take your comment in the reverse order and start up from the bottom:

If we know certain things are triggery for a sizable number of people (and I think we do know that rape and incest and dub-con and certain kinds of extreme violence are), is it too much of an imposition for authors to warn for that?

I think perhaps this is a little unintended question begging here? It does rather assume that one can establish an obligation by proving there is a substantial harm that the obligation is intended to address, and also that the only other relevant consideration is cost to the individual author, both of which are far from universally agreed.

Taking the latter point first, you can't properly weigh the aggregate harm to everyone ever triggered by any story against the cost of warning to each author individually. Further, there are potential social costs: do mandatory warnings contribute to a culture of dependence; do they promote a safety above all attitude detrimental to both society at large and literature in particular; do they further marginalise those whose triggers don't quite make the master 'must be warned for' list; do they further marginalise those who turned to fandom as a (relatively) welcoming place to express aspects of their sexuality they are now told aren't fit to be mentioned without warning and are akin to incest and rape; do they contribute to the unwanted impression that those who have been traumatised always remain victims who require the special concern and indulgence of others? All these points have been variously raised and potentially constitute part of the cost of warning.

Turning now to the earlier point, if the thesis is that universal warnings are the best plan for dealing with the harm of people being triggered it is not enough just to weigh up the costs and merits of universal warnings: you must also consider possible alternative plans, otherwise you commit the politicians fallacy ('Something must be done. This is something. Therefore we must do this.') If the thesis is that the harm of being triggered obligates writers to take some (or particularly this) course of action, or that writers are morally responsible for that harm, then I'm afraid a great deal more work must be done other than considering convenience to the writer. For example, you must establish why the writer is responsible for the harm. (eg Given that the harm can only occur when someone takes the lack of warning to mean the story is safe, and given the obvious current existence of a large amount of fic where the author chose not to, didn't think to or wasn't part of a community that held it necessary to warn, I do not quite see how readers can come to harm except by way of fallacies of accident or hasty generalisation, and I am not at all clear why anyone should be held responsible for failing to take special action to prevent the possibility of a party unknown to them coming to harm by reasoning fallaciously.)

The most frequent argument from harm to obligation I have seen is along the lines of 'if someone says you're hurting them, you must stop'. I assume this is shorthand for some much more detailed argument. Presumably it takes for granted both 'if you have reason to think they're telling the truth', which would take care of the most glaring objection - that anyone could demand you modify your behaviour in any way on spurious claims on harm, and 'if you have reason to think they're right about the cause of the harm'. But this still says nothing about how we are to balance the rights of the actor nor about how to account for other harm that may accrue from stopping what you were doing. Also, there are types of harm against which we are generally agreed to have a right - I cannot go around punching you in the face, for example. I see no grounds, however, to believe that any such right extends to all harm, including mental distress occasioned by others progressing about their normal business.

(One thing that strikes me is how little use the proposed remedy is for the alleged harm. Many people who need to beware of potential triggers are triggered by things that aren't on the list for universal warning, and even those who are quite probably will have other triggers that didn't make the list or are entirely individual. So many or even most people with triggers will still not be able to assume a fic is safe even with warnings, much less without. (Warnings may, of course, make it easier to navigate fandom, but if that is the argument - and it does have merit - you cannot support it in any straightforward way by arguing to the harm of being triggered.))

I'm a little baffled, actually, by the idea that if authors warn, suddenly readers with triggers will be free of all responsibility ever

The act of warning has is not the thing removing the responsibility (I agree it doesn't), the thing removing the responsibility is a particular sort of argument as to why authors should warn, ie the people who were arguing it was appalling to suggest readers were assumed to be responsible for their own safety, who felt that was a burden, that it was unreasonable to expect someone who had been traumatised to do any such thing, and that it was therefore the writer's responsibility to look out for them precisely because they couldn't or shouldn't be expected to do it themselves. I think it a very bad argument, but also one I don't think you're making yourself? Certainly you seem to be looking at it as doing something helpful, not as having extra responsibility for someone who can't look after themself. (This, I think, is a much more promising approach to warning. Much of my criticism comes from the attempt to impose an obligation I think badly supported. Freely choosing to do something helpful is a different thing, and one I would initially have supported whole-heartedly. (As the debate has progressed, I've heard various arguments that have made me rethink my position somewhat on the type of things to be warned for (both adding things to warn for I hadn't realised might be a problem, and subtracting others where the warning itself might be a problem) and the potential costs of a culture where warnings are very widespread.)

Your comment about the pedestrian crossing was interesting, though, because it suggests something about where you might be coming from I hadn't thought of. The pedestrian crossing is an obvious example of a legal right. Much of the argument about harm has been directed to the existence of some existing right, but perhaps what you are arguing for is the creation of a new right, a sort of within-fandom legal right to warnings? It's an interesting idea, though one I think it might be hard to effect :) [ETA: 'Twas late when I posted this and I'm not sure I was clear. I mean legal in the sense of 'not natural' - although the pedestrian example is a legal right in every sense, I didn't suppose you to be arguing that there should be a legal-as-in-laws-of-the-country duty to warn but rather some version of placing fannish custom in the position of governing body of fandom, or of arguing some sort of contract involved in fannish participation. I don't think you can argue an existing right to warning like this, given the lack of consensus, but I imagine you might make a case that such a right should be brought into existence.]

I do think it's possible that part of the problem may be that people who favour quite different ethical theories are, unsurprisingly, coming to somewhat different conclusions, without necessarily realising how deep the disagreement lies. (eg, I'm quite unlikely to be convinced by an argument relying on positive natural rights.) I'm not sure what to do about this. In principle, I'm all for continuing debate until one side has found a way to argue to their position from premises accepted by the other. In practice, we are hardly likely to resolve some of the more fundamental disagreements in moral philosophy, and it's quite possible that, without such resolution, this may be a case where it isn't possible to correctly argue from positions supported by different ethical theories to an identical conclusion. I'd be inclined to say that, if we accept writers may have reasonable moral grounds for considering they are not required to warn, the best solution would be for those in favour of warnings to explain why, those who think there are reasons not to likewise, and then it be left to the conscience and judgment of the individual author. But then, that was what I wanted to start with, so I would say that!

Last edited 2009-07-01 04:57 pm UTC

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